Second Chance for Provincal Winners

[stevie06]

A big talking this weekend has been the current qualifer system and that provincal winners are not given a second chance. All four provincal winners were knocked out this weekend while all four provincal runner-ups were knocked out the week before. Does this highlight a flaw in the current system which could soon see provincal titles becoming worthless with teams perferring to take the back-door route.

Mickey Harte has become the biggest critic of the system:

''Why is it that the team that wins their province isn't given a second chance if they lose an All-Ireland quarter-final? It's an absolute disgrace that provincial winners are disadvantaged. The system is flawed and nobody will give me a solid argument to say that it isn't,"

He makes a fair point but of course he wasnt complaining in previous years when Tyrone benefited from the qualifer system most notably 2005 when they went on to win the All-Ireland that year throught the back door.

So does the system need a complete overhual next year? Im not sure i think the cuurent system needs a few tweaks instead of a complete overhaul. Could the time gap between a provincal fianl and a quarter-final be reduced so teams arent waiting four or five weeks for their next game. Their was an idea discussed on The Sunday Game last night but they didnt go into any great detail and to be honest not sure what they were proposing, perhaps someone one her can explain it.

Im sure this isnt the last we will hear of this arguement and come next years Championship i would expect changes to be made.

[gar]

Unfortunately Stevie the structures of the competitions in the gaa leave a lot to be desired. At all levels there is inequality some of it forced some not

! the current provincial system wherby one team has to play as many as four matches to get to the same spot where others have only to play one . I.e leinster or Ulster championships as compared to connaught or Munster.

the date of the provincial final gives a definite advantage to teams that win or loose. Depending on the date some teams have three weeks to recover or four as in Kerry's (although they were provincial champions) case inwhich they went stale or only one week in Monaghan's case.

No second chance for the provincial winners. 29 teams get a second chance four dont and they are the teams who suceed . It doesnt make sense.

At minor level two provinces have back-door systems from the first round onwards yet Ulster connaught only have a back-door for the defeated finalists . Offaly beat Longford by 20 points in the first round yet Longford came back and beat them in the final.

Gaa has two time codes 70 mins county senior football 60 mins for all the rest.

Micky Harte has been saying this for a number of years now and has suggested that the four provincial winners play of as normal, the two defeated meet the those coming through in an extra round of qualifiers .
Unless we scrap the provincials I cannot see any way around the inbuilt inequalities of the provincials.

[easy tiger]

Micky Harte has been saying this for a number of years now and has suggested that the four provincial winners play of as normal, the two defeated meet the those coming through in an extra round of qualifiers .
Unless we scrap the provincials I cannot see any way around the inbuilt inequalities of the provincials.

Leaving 31 teams with a second chance and two without?
This does not solve the problem.

[corn02]

Begbie, get 'er up!

[DANSYOURMAN]

Some good points there Stevie and Gar ; so , for the sake of discussion (not argument) :-

(1) Micky Harte does not favour the qualifier system inasmuchas it is disadvantageous to the provincial winners who lose at the Q Final stage and therefore dont get a second chance. He favours a system where the 4 provincial winners play off and the 2 losers then meet the final 2 from the qualifiers. Well supposing Tyrone won their provincial and then won their match against another provincial winner and were therefore in the S.Finals. If they were then beaten in the S Final would he then argue that they like everyone else deserved a second chance ? IMO you have as much right to complain at the S Final stage as at the Q Final stage and if you start going down that road then the system escends into the realm of ludicrous , to say the least.

A lot of attention has been paid to the fact that the last 4 does not contain a single provincial finalist - I personally think this is knee-jerk reaction. It has never happened before. From 2000 to 2009 5 qualifiers have won the All-Ireland - hardly conclusive one way or the other.

How about this (1) Retain the provincials Championships and play them Mid-April to Mid-June. Commence an open draw All-Ireland Played Sat and Sun in the first week in July and move forward through the rounds every 2 weeks until the final late Sept.

[corrinshego]

Provincial winners getting home advantage would be of use IMO. Dublin having to play in Omagh and Down in Tralee/Killarney?

[Begbie]

Here you go Corn

Double Elimination- A suitable system? or a similar failure?

The All-Ireland Championship back door system has certainly never been too far from controversy in recent years, especially with regard to provincial championships. For some they remain as important as ever, for others they stand as a mere added bonus if future success features at head quarters. We have just witnessed Cork defeating Kerry for a third time in four Munster championships. What happened next in both ’06 and ’08 was hardly surprising and something which could again feature later this summer. At the business end of the season Kerry faced Cork again and were victorious. No matter what way you look at this (or how good you consider Cork to be) the relevance of the Munster championship appears to be under scrutiny.

This however is merely a matter of opinion. Maybe Kerry do want to win an All Ireland via the traditional route. Maybe injuries to key players, such as Kieran Donaghy and Tommy Walsh, explained two under par performances. However, what cannot be denied is the lack of initiative for teams to excel at provincial level. Provincial winners are punished by the system in place at the moment. An obvious example is that of Armagh. This provincial dilemma is a step too far for many peoples liking. Four counties suffer most and without bias it could be argued that the Ulster Champions suffer most of all as it is the most demanding province in terms of the quality of matches played and the number of fixtures played.


Double Elimination

Surely an alternative system can be employed to rid the championship of this provincial dilemma. Recently when speaking to a good friend from Tyrone he suggested the Double Elimination system to addresses the injustice provincial winners receive within the current system. The back door system, currently in place, progresses to the last 8 stage which sees the 4 provincial winners play the four successful qualifiers. The provincial winners if beaten as this stage or indeed a later stage do not have the luxury of the a second bite at the cherry as the qualifiers and each defeated team in Ireland have availed of up until this stage. This system of Double Elimination will allow the provincial winners to re-enter one last time.

The four provincial winners will enter into Group A of the quarter final and go head to head. For example, Armagh vs Cork and Dublin vs Mayo. These four teams will have yet to lose. Whereas Group B (four teams which have already lost once) could, for example, feature Tyrone vs Kerry and Kildare vs Galway. Two of the teams in the provincial winners Group A will inevitably lose and will enter into Group B to face the two successful teams. This will leave four teams in Group B which have all lost once and two undefeated teams in Group A. The teams in Group B will play in a semi final to provide two winners who will then face each other to provide an opponent for the Loser of the final game of Group A. This will then provide a winner who enters into the All-Ireland final to face the team which remains undefeated in Group A.


Format of Last Eight:

Group A (Provincial winners)
Armagh vs Cork Armagh win places Galway in Group B
Dublin vs Mayo Dublin win places Mayo in Group B

Group B (Qualifiers)
Tyrone vs Kerry : Tyrone win eliminates Kerry
Kildare vs Galway : Kerry win eliminates Galway

Next stage : Revised groups

Group A
Armagh vs Dublin : Armagh win places Dublin In Group B

Group B
Galway vs Tyrone : Tyrone win eliminates Galway
Mayo vs Kerry : Kerry win eliminates Mayo

Group B winners (Tyrone and Kerry) will then face each other to decide who faces Dublin who have only been defeated once.

If Kerry defeat Tyrone they will face Dublin in what is effectively an All-Ireland semi final. The winners will face undefeated Armagh in the final.

This system certainly has advantages over the system which currently stands. Teams will be given every incentive to win their respective provincial titles. Armagh in this scenario will have played a game less than their All-Ireland final opponents. This would give all counties the incentive and motivation to win every game they play, therefore not taking the edge out of any championship game. The obvious flaw in this system is that the only team who would suffer would be a team which reaches the All-Ireland final and suffers their first defeat. However, they will have played a game less to have reached the final and this in itself may serve towards a justified system.

In the long term a group phase could be entered and that would rid the championship of inconsistencies, but reverting to such a system appears very far away from where we are at currently. This idea of Double Elimination would certainly improve the level of equality for provincial champions and put the spark back into provincial titles.

[Applemad]

sorry begbie but you have Kerry in there and Galway
Armagh v Cork Armagh win puts Galway in group B??
Kildare v Galway.. Kerry win eliminates Galway???

Not being smart but surely you mean Cork in group B and Kerry instead of Kildare .

It confused me a little

[stevie06]

Here you go Corn!

Double Elimination - A suitable system or a similar failure?

The All-Ireland Championship back door system has certainly never been far from controversy in recent years, especially with regard to provincial championships. For some they remain as important as ever, for others they are an added bonus if future success features at headquarters.
A few weeks back, Cork defeated Kerry for a third time in four Munster championships and what happened back in’06 and ’08 could again feature later this summer when, at the business end of the season Kerry faced Cork again and were victorious.
No matter what way you look at this (or how good you consider Cork to be) the relevance of the Munster championship appears to be under scrutiny.
This however is merely a matter of opinion. Maybe Kerry do want to win an All Ireland via the traditional route, maybe injuries to key players, such as Kieran Donaghy and Tommy Walsh, explained two under par performances against Cork.
However, what cannot be denied is the lack of initiative for teams to excel at provincial level. Provincial winners are punished by the system in place at the moment and this provincial dilemma is a step too far for many peoples liking. Four counties suffer most and without bias it could be argued that the Ulster Champions suffer most-of-all as it is the most demanding province in terms of the quality of matches played and the number of fixtures played.
Surely an alternative system can be employed to rid the championship of this provincial dilemma.

Double Elimination

When speaking recently to a good friend from Tyrone, he suggested the Double Elimination system to address the injustice provincial winners receive within the current system.
As it currently stands the back door system progresses to the last eight stage where the four provincial winners play the four successful qualifiers. The provincial winners if beaten as this stage, or indeed a later stage, do not have the luxury of a second bite at the cherry as the qualifiers and each defeated team in Ireland have availed of up until this stage.
A system of Double Elimination would allow the provincial winners to re-enter one last time and it would work as follows:
• The four provincial winners enter into Group A of the quarter-final and go head-to-head (These four teams will have yet to lose).
• Group B would feature the four teams that have already lost once before coming through the qualifiers who would also go head-to-head.
• Two of the teams in Group A would inevitably lose and would enter Group B to face the two successful teams.
• This would leave four teams in Group B, which have all lost (at least) once, and two undefeated teams in Group A.
• The teams in Group B would play in a semi-final to provide two winners who would then face each other to provide an opponent for the Loser of the final game of Group A.
• This would then provide a winner who enters into the All-Ireland final to face the team that remains undefeated in Group A.

Format of Last Eight

Group A (Provincial winners)
Armagh v Cork - Armagh win places Cork in Group B
Dublin v Mayo - Dublin win places Mayo in Group B
Group B (Qualifiers)
Tyrone v Kerry - Tyrone win eliminates Kerry
Kildare v Galway - Kildare win eliminates Galway
Next stage: Revised groups
Group A
Armagh v Dublin - Armagh win places Dublin In Group B
Group B
Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win eliminates Cork
Mayo v Kerry - Kerry win eliminates Mayo
Group B winners (Tyrone and Kerry) would face each other to decide who faces Dublin who have only been defeated once.
If Kerry defeat Tyrone they would face Dublin in what is effectively an All-Ireland semi-final. The winners would then face undefeated Armagh in the final.
Advantages

This system certainly has advantages over the present system. Teams would have every incentive to win their respective provincial titles. Armagh in this scenario would have played a game less than their All-Ireland final opponents. This would give all counties the incentive and motivation to win every game they play and therefore not taking the edge out of any championship game.
There is though an obvious flaw in this system - the only team who would suffer would be the team that reaches the All-Ireland final and suffers their first defeat. However, they would have played a game less to reach the final and this in itself may serve towards a justified system.
In the long term a group phase could be entered and that would rid the championship of inconsistencies, but reverting to such a system appears far away from where we are at currently.
This idea of Double Elimination would certainly improve the level of equality for provincial champions and put the spark back into provincial titles.

The system does have its advantages no doubt. But one problem i could see is that teams in Group B who came through the qualifers would have to play potentially 7 games in very short space of time due tho the scheduling of the qualifers.

I will use tyrone as an example and make up my own dates to highlight my point.

Say Tyrone are knocked out on in the prelimiary round of Ulster they will enter the first stage of the qualifers.

First round of qualifers 4th July
Tyrone v Louth (Tyrone win puts them in the second round of qualifers.)

Second round of qualifers 11th July
Tyrone v Wexford (Tyrone win puts them in the third round of qualifers)

Thrid round of qualifers 18th July
Tyrone v Meath ( Tyrone win puts them in the fourth round of qualifers)

Fourth round of qualifers 25th July
Tyrone v Down ( Tyrone win puts them into Group B of Begbies proposed plan)

Group B Qualifers 1st August
Tyrone v Kerry (Tyrone win means they now face a loser from Group A)

Group B revised 8th August
Tyrone v Cork (Tyrone win now means they face the other winner from Group B)

Group B final game 15th August
Tyrone v Mayo (Tyrone win means they face the loser of the fianl Group A game)

All-Ireland Semi Final 29th August
Tyrone v Dublin (Tyrone win means they are into the AI final to face Group A winner)

Thus by my counting this would mean Tyrone would have to play 9 games (including their orginal defeat in Ulster) to reach the All-Ireland final. More importantly they would have to play 8 games in the space of 8 or 9 games. Plus any replays could completly mess up the schedule and it becomes very tought to complete the schedule. Managers are also lilekly to argue with the number of games over the short space of time

I am not dismissing the system just highlighting the major flaw i see with it.

[stevie06]

Double Elimination - A suitable system or a similar failure?

The All-Ireland Championship back door system has certainly never been far from controversy in recent years, especially with regard to provincial championships. For some they remain as important as ever, for others they are an added bonus if future success features at headquarters.
A few weeks back, Cork defeated Kerry for a third time in four Munster championships and what happened back in’06 and ’08 could again feature later this summer when, at the business end of the season Kerry faced Cork again and were victorious.
No matter what way you look at this (or how good you consider Cork to be) the relevance of the Munster championship appears to be under scrutiny.
This however is merely a matter of opinion. Maybe Kerry do want to win an All Ireland via the traditional route, maybe injuries to key players, such as Kieran Donaghy and Tommy Walsh, explained two under par performances against Cork.
However, what cannot be denied is the lack of initiative for teams to excel at provincial level. Provincial winners are punished by the system in place at the moment and this provincial dilemma is a step too far for many peoples liking. Four counties suffer most and without bias it could be argued that the Ulster Champions suffer most-of-all as it is the most demanding province in terms of the quality of matches played and the number of fixtures played.
Surely an alternative system can be employed to rid the championship of this provincial dilemma.

Double Elimination

When speaking recently to a good friend from Tyrone, he suggested the Double Elimination system to address the injustice provincial winners receive within the current system.
As it currently stands the back door system progresses to the last eight stage where the four provincial winners play the four successful qualifiers. The provincial winners if beaten as this stage, or indeed a later stage, do not have the luxury of a second bite at the cherry as the qualifiers and each defeated team in Ireland have availed of up until this stage.
A system of Double Elimination would allow the provincial winners to re-enter one last time and it would work as follows:
• The four provincial winners enter into Group A of the quarter-final and go head-to-head (These four teams will have yet to lose).
• Group B would feature the four teams that have already lost once before coming through the qualifiers who would also go head-to-head.
• Two of the teams in Group A would inevitably lose and would enter Group B to face the two successful teams.
• This would leave four teams in Group B, which have all lost (at least) once, and two undefeated teams in Group A.
• The teams in Group B would play in a semi-final to provide two winners who would then face each other to provide an opponent for the Loser of the final game of Group A.
• This would then provide a winner who enters into the All-Ireland final to face the team that remains undefeated in Group A.

Format of Last Eight

Group A (Provincial winners)
Armagh v Cork - Armagh win places Cork in Group B
Dublin v Mayo - Dublin win places Mayo in Group B
Group B (Qualifiers)
Tyrone v Kerry - Tyrone win eliminates Kerry
Kildare v Galway - Kildare win eliminates Galway
Next stage: Revised groups
Group A
Armagh v Dublin - Armagh win places Dublin In Group B
Group B
Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win eliminates Cork
Mayo v Kerry - Kerry win eliminates Mayo
Group B winners (Tyrone and Kerry) would face each other to decide who faces Dublin who have only been defeated once.
If Kerry defeat Tyrone they would face Dublin in what is effectively an All-Ireland semi-final. The winners would then face undefeated Armagh in the final.

Advantages

This system certainly has advantages over the present system. Teams would have every incentive to win their respective provincial titles. Armagh in this scenario would have played a game less than their All-Ireland final opponents. This would give all counties the incentive and motivation to win every game they play and therefore not taking the edge out of any championship game.
There is though an obvious flaw in this system - the only team who would suffer would be the team that reaches the All-Ireland final and suffers their first defeat. However, they would have played a game less to reach the final and this in itself may serve towards a justified system.
In the long term a group phase could be entered and that would rid the championship of inconsistencies, but reverting to such a system appears far away from where we are at currently.
This idea of Double Elimination would certainly improve the level of equality for provincial champions and put the spark back into provincial titles.

maybe im wrong but i cant notice any differences from your previous post. Also the problem i highlighted earlier still exists. The system would require very careful and thought out planning. And any draw leading to replays could lead to hectic schedule that could lead to games clashing with hurling quarter and semi finals and also potentially could lead to games being played in September (apart from the All-ireland final of course)