Second Chance for Provincal Winners

[Begbie]

I do see your point regarding the number of games, however on the flip side how many games have Kildare played this year to get to the AI semi? 7? I do understand that one was a replay. That means they'll have played at least 8 to reach the AI final when they dispose of Down. It seems that the more games a team plays the better, it's building momentum. A 4 week break doesn't do anyone any good and this (although off the point) is my biggest fear for Kildare.

[Begbie]

sorry begbie but you have Kerry in there and Galway
Armagh v Cork Armagh win puts Galway in group B??
Kildare v Galway.. Kerry win eliminates Galway???

Not being smart but surely you mean Cork in group B and Kerry instead of Kildare .

It confused me a little

I corrected that applemad, had an old version posted.

[stevie06]

I do see your point regarding the number of games, however on the flip side how many games have Kildare played this year to get to the AI semi? 7? I do understand that one was a replay. That means they'll have played at least 8 to reach the AI final when they dispose of Down. It seems that the more games a team plays the better, it's building momentum. A 4 week break doesn't do anyone any good and this (although off the point) is my biggest fear for Kildare.

Yeah Kildare have played 7 games including one replay against Antrim in the first round of qualifers. Another issue that dosent appear to be addressed in the system is provincal losers only being given in most cases 6 days to recover from their defeat. Dont get me wrong Begbie the system does have numerous advantages and is the best alterntive ive heard and after all every system that is proposes will have its flaws but it is important to highlight these flaws attempt to correct them

[Begbie]

Yeah Kildare have played 7 games including one replay against Antrim in the first round of qualifers. Another issue that dosent appear to be addressed in the system is provincal losers only being given in most cases 6 days to recover from their defeat. Dont get me wrong Begbie the system does have numerous advantages and is the best alterntive ive heard and after all every system that is proposes will have its flaws but it is important to highlight these flaws attempt to correct them

I couldn't agree more and you are right about the provincial finalists. It's something that really annoys me. Both winners and runners up of provincial finals are suffering and it's something that has to be acted upon. This Double Elimination in many ways is looking to accommodate Provincial winners in a way which is better than that of the current system but does little for the provincial runners up. It's a major problem IMO.

[stevie06]

I couldn't agree more and you are right about the provincial finalists. It's something that really annoys me. Both winners and runners up of provincial finals are suffering and it's something that has to be acted upon. This Double Elimination in many ways is looking to accommodate Provincial winners in a way which is better than that of the current system but does little for the provincial runners up. It's a major problem IMO.

Agreed. A potential solution to this could be to adopt the system that you posted but also starting the Championship earlier than normal. Traditionally the Championship starts on the first weekend of May, but what if it was to start at the start or middle of April. This would allow the GAA to accommodate beaten Provincial finalists with a longer break and also allow the qualifer system to begin earlier alllowing a two-week break between rounds instead of the regular 6 day turnaround.

But like i said every system will have its flaws and starting earlier will also have its flaws.

[Armaghgeddon_02]

Provincials should just be done away with. After this year I doubt anyone is going to want to win them next year.

I would suggest having an All Ireland league

So in Ulster: Leinster

1. Antrim Dublin
2. Armagh Carlow
3. Cavan Kildare
4. Derry Meath
5. Donegal Westmeath
6. Down Offaly
7. Fermanagh Louth
8. Monaghan Laois
9. Tyrone Kilkenny
10. Galway Longford
11. Leitrim Kerry
12. Roscommon Cork
13. Mayo Limerick
14. London Clare
15. NY Tipperary
16. Sligo Wexford
17. Wicklow
18. Waterford


Each team plays the other once. Top 4 finishing teams get to play in the last 8. Might be a bit more demanding but it has the potential to increase GAA revenue. None of this 'we had a bad game' crap. No team has a wasted season and teams would really earn the title best team in Ireland. Unlike in previous year eg Tyrone not beating Down but still being AI winners.

If that is too much have WC style seeding system and have four divisions [would involve the exclusion of London and NY] with top 2 in each progressing.

[AFS]

Provincials should just be done away with. After this year I doubt anyone is going to want to win them next year.

You underestimate the value of a provincial title to a great many counties.

[DANSYOURMAN]

Agree with you there AFS - there's been an over-the top reaction to the failure of the 8 provincial finalists to reach the A I S.Finals. The original 2 postings (Gar and Stevie i think) have rightly indicated that there are flaws in both the qualifier and provincial systems but it is absolute folly for anyone to suggest that they are the sole reason for this year's representation in the last 4. Look - (1) teams are better prepared than ever and (2) the standards and hunger of the so-called top 4 appear to be falling . When you put this into the mix with the apparent inadequacies of the qualifier arrangements then was it such a great surprise that Down , Kildare and Dublin won their respective matches. The bookies were only offering 3/1 , evens and 9/4 respectively - I've been gambling most of my life and these were not exactly massive outsider odds.
Armaghgeddon's opinion that he doubts if anyone will want to win a provincial title next year would fall on deaf ears in Roscommon Louth Monaghan Fermanagh and Antrim and (IMO) about 19 other counties ; as for the top 7 or 8 I can only go by Dublin's numerous provincial successes in Leinster , Armagh's numerous provincial successes in Ulster and Micky Harte's high opinion on the value of an Ulster title (every time he's asked about it) as markers.
I would welcome opinions on my earlier posting about the value of retaining the Provincials purely as provincials April - June and then an open draw AI July-Sept . This satisfies the majority (IMO) who would wish to retain the provincials and does away with the unfairness attributed to the qualifier system. It also ensures that Ulster teams (for example) in an A I series do not have to play 4 provincial tight matches in order to progress wherby Munster sides may face 1 , possibly 2. Additionally as with the FA cup there would be the same time gap between rounds thereby ensuring that no-one would either benefit or be disadvantaged by time lags or games on 6 successive weekends . I have not thought this the whole way through , particularly the timing logistics but as i say - I would welcome opinions.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Unless we scrap the provincials I cannot see any way around the inbuilt inequalities of the provincials.

That is the absolute crux of the matter.

The Provinces have between 6 - 11 teams competing in the Football Championships - as long as the Provincials are retained, there will be inequality. And I'm not so sure seperating the Provincials and the All Ireland would be a realistic option, as it would devalue the Provincial Championship to the level of the McKenna Cup.

[DANSYOURMAN]

Rufus - if I have got this right it would appear that you and Gar are advocating the abolition of the Provincials on the grounds that they lead to inequality. Surely there will always be inequality insomuch as there will always be good teams , middlin teams and poor teams no matter what competitions yu keep/lose. Would your suggestion not reflect the opinion of a doctor who , upon diagnosing a sore finger , decides that the only option is to cut it off ? So I believe abolition would achieve very little. Should we not be looking at the symptoms and the reasons for the "inequality" and at least try to look for solutions .

So , if you abolish the provincials , then I assume you are mooting an open draw AI ? Would this be to the benefit of the development of Clare football if they were drawn away to Cork in the first round ? I'll not bother with numerous examples.Now before you cite me as stating that I advocated an open draw AI just remember that I proposed it together with Provincial C'ships.That way , as with the qualifiers , every team would get at least 2 games in the summer.

Your point about the devaluation of the Provincials if they were to be retained simply as stand-alone competitions - such is the level of interest in gaelic football right now (even the Dr Mckenna attracts crowds (sometimes) of 6 to 10 thousand) and such is the intensity of neighbourly get-togethers that it would be MY OPINION that the Provincial C'ships might never lose their appeal.