Second Chance for Provincal Winners

[stevie06]

You underestimate the value of a provincial title to a great many counties.

Agreed look at the likes of Roscommon this year, a Connacht title meant everything to them, and it was obvious in the Leinster final how much a title would have meant to the Louth players and their fans.

Scrapping the Provincial for me would be the wrong decision and i couldnt honestly seeing it happen. I would also have reservations about holding a seperate All-Ireland after the Provincial Championships, it dosent solve the problem. For example if Armagh were to win Ulster and then enter the sperate open draw 32 All-Ireland, if they were beat in the first round they still wouldnt have a second chance. Thus if that system was to be adopted the Provincial Championships will offer no reward for teams and could become worthless to teasm like Kerry, Cork, Tyrone and Dublin (though it could be argued this as already happened)

[DANSYOURMAN]

Agreed look at the likes of Roscommon this year, a Connacht title meant everything to them, and it was obvious in the Leinster final how much a title would have meant to the Louth players and their fans.

Scrapping the Provincial for me would be the wrong decision and i couldnt honestly seeing it happen. I would also have reservations about holding a seperate All-Ireland after the Provincial Championships, it dosent solve the problem. For example if Armagh were to win Ulster and then enter the sperate open draw 32 All-Ireland, if they were beat in the first round they still wouldnt have a second chance. Thus if that system was to be adopted the Provincial Championships will offer no reward for teams and could become worthless to teasm like Kerry, Cork, Tyrone and Dublin (though it could be argued this as already happened)

Stevie - the qualifiers were not introduced for the purpose of giving teams a second chance. I would guess that there's no other knock-out competition on the planet where a team/person beaten is afforded a second chance . The stated purpose of the introduction of the qualifiers in 2001 was that they were intended to encourage development amongst the middle and lower-tier counties whereby they would be guaranteed more than one C'ship game per year.It was never the goal to afford teams a second chance - and where it has failed is that the teams who now profit from a second chance are invariably the stronger teams - the stats will absolutely show this.An Irish Independent survey carried out last year with 2 inter-county players (one football , one hurling) from each county revealed a two-thirds majority in favour of abolition of the qualifiers - the main reason given being that it favoured the stronger counties. Not conclusive , but interesting.

For reasons already given to Rufus it is a personal opinion that the Provincial C'ships will always be an attraction to both players and spectators.

I'm in total agreement with all posters who acknowledge that the qualifier system has obvious flaws - what the Croker powers need to do is to sit down and think it through. Will they - I dont believe so because being a sceptic I believe that in reality the qualifiers were introduced to generate extra revenue to assist with payment of the interest on the Croke Park development loan.

[stevie06]

The stated purpose of the introduction of the qualifiers in 2001 was that they were intended to encourage development amongst the middle and lower-tier counties whereby they would be guaranteed more than one C'ship game per year.It was never the goal to afford teams a second chance - and where it has failed is that the teams who now profit from a second .

Understand your arguement and accept that qualifers do aim to give shall we say weaker teams more mathces and help their development so they arent only given one Championship game a year. But at the end of the day this is still given teams a second chance, no matter whether they are a lower, middle or upper-tier county, as they are still involved in the Championship.

It can also be argued whether the qualifer system only benefits the stronger teams as the likes of Wicklow and Antrim have benefited from the a run in the qualifers in recent years. Yes the Corks, Dublins, Downs and Kildares will 9 out of 10 times reach the quarter-finals through the qualifer system but that was to be expected.

I would also agree with your point that a big factor in the qualifer system exisitng is the extra revenue is generated for the GAA and to ensure that the big teams like Dublin and Cork (who will attract a big crowd) are more likely to be involved come the business end of the Championship

[Rufus T Firefly]

Rufus - if I have got this right it would appear that you and Gar are advocating the abolition of the Provincials on the grounds that they lead to inequality.

I can't speak for gar - but all I'm doing is pointing out the absolute reality that inequality cannot be achieved whilst retaining the Provincial Championships.

Surely there will always be inequality insomuch as there will always be good teams , middlin teams and poor teams no matter what competitions yu keep/lose. Would your suggestion not reflect the opinion of a doctor who , upon diagnosing a sore finger , decides that the only option is to cut it off ? So I believe abolition would achieve very little. Should we not be looking at the symptoms and the reasons for the "inequality" and at least try to look for solutions.

An interesting analogy, if I may say so.



The Derby , like our Championships, has strong, 'middlin' and poor contenders. It doesn't mean we should let some of them take a short cut across the course, and avoid Tattenham Corner!!

[stevie06]

I can't speak for gar - but all I'm doing is pointing out the absolute reality that inequality cannot be achieved whilst retaining the Provincial Championships.

Cant see how scrapping the Provincial Championship will achieve equality. Smaller teams like Longford, Carlow and Clare will never be able to compete with the bigger teams like Cork and Kerry. In fact removing the current system could actaully further add to the inequality as we have seen this year and in previous years that the smaller teams can benefit from the Provincial Championship highlighted by Louth and Roscommon this year and by Antrim last year. Would Roscommon have reached an All-Ireland quarter-final without the Connacht Championship i seriously doubt it

I would argue that inequality is a part of sport, and we must accept that. There will always be stronger teams and there will always be weaker teams, and no system will 'fix' that problem. For me the problem with the current system is that a Provincial Championship is quickly becoming worthless offering little reward and we must try to restore the pride and prestige of the Provinical Chmapionship

[Rufus T Firefly]

Cant see how scrapping the Provincial Championship will achieve equality. Smaller teams like Longford, Carlow and Clare will never be able to compete with the bigger teams like Cork and Kerry. In fact removing the current system could actaully further add to the inequality as we have seen this year and in previous years that the smaller teams can benefit from the Provincial Championship highlighted by Louth and Roscommon this year and by Antrim last year. Would Roscommon have reached an All-Ireland quarter-final without the Connacht Championship i seriously doubt it

I would argue that inequality is a part of sport, and we must accept that. There will always be stronger teams and there will always be weaker teams, and no system will 'fix' that problem. For me the problem with the current system is that a Provincial Championship is quickly becoming worthless offering little reward and we must try to restore the pride and prestige of the Provinical Chmapionship

You're getting mixed up Stevie. When I talk about inequality, I am not talking about the standard of the teams, I am referring to the inequalities in the of paths of competitors to achieving the ultimate goal.

Of course teams are better than one another - that's the nature of competitive sport, and indeed teams can benefit from a lucky draw, or get nailed by an unlucky draw. But that's not what we are talking about here. The current system is inherently flawed.

[stevie06]

You're getting mixed up Stevie. When I talk about inequality, I am not talking about the standard of the teams, I am referring to the inequalities in the of paths of competitors to achieving the ultimate goal.

Of course teams are better than one another - that's the nature of competitive sport, and indeed teams can benefit from a lucky draw, or get nailed by an unlucky draw. But that's not what we are talking about here. The current system is inherently flawed.

Sorry Rufus misunderstood the point you were making apologies.

You are right about the current system that inequality does exist mainly against Provincial Champions and runners-up and this years Championship has gone a long way in highlighting this with no Provincial runners-up or champions left.

[corn02]

Posted this a while back when the debate arose before...

If we were to do a champions league format, I’d prefer no A and B section or any geographical splits. 32 teams, with Kilkenny likely to sit it out. If it was 31//33 group numbers could be adjusted accordingly.

The first problem there, obviously, is that Division Four’s worst teams look trapped. In recent years Longford, Wicklow, Antrim have all given runs from Division Four - it’s possible.

However, I do realise that there are half a dozen teams who are just not at the level and something may have to be implemented. Maybe instead of Division Four in the League, 8 teams play off for four slots in the group stages, which takes the main pot down by a group.
Again, the top two finishers go into Division Three the next year and two drop down, thus keeping that fairness aspect in place.

With a CL format, seeding would be essential. That’s when the strengthening of the League comes into play. Simple - Division One top seeds are top seeds (although with the main entity being a group down, this would have to be altered accordingly e.g - the bottom placed team does not gain a top seed, which would, in most circumstances, leave something to play for in even the final round of League games.

This is where I think the provincials should be scrapped. If we went CL, and we agreed on League seedings, then, realistically, the League would have to be played just before the Championship, giving the provincials the McKenna Cup slot. Would anyone want to see an Ulster Championship being played in winter months, with teams experimenting?

The CL format would be simple to run, groups of fours, plus a knockout format. Covers all angles - fairness, number of games, potential for upsets.

[Centre Half]

Kelly Calls For Separate Championships
Former GAA president Sean Kelly is proposing that the provincial and All-Ireland football championships be run as separate competitions.

His suggestion follows the failure of all eight provincial finalists to make the All-Ireland semi-finals for the first time since the All-Ireland qualifiers were introduced in 2001.

Kelly says: "If we want fairness and a system that works, and if we want to help our clubs, there is one obvious solution. Run the provincial championships as they are run at present, but run the All-Ireland series as a separate competition on an open draw basis concurrently.

"Paraic Duffy rightly said it is a separate competition already - separate but not apart from the Provincial series. It is time to make the Sam Maguire Cup both separate and apart but run concurrently with the Provincial campaign.

"Here's how it would work. Firstly, make your draw for each Provincial Championship as heretofore and run them off as normal with the fact that they would no longer be linked to the All-Ireland series giving the provincial councils some flexibility regarding dates. Also, make a separate open draw for the All-Ireland; 32 is the perfect number of counties and it's time we used such a natural resource.

"New York or London could be given the option of playing a preliminary round or just opting for a shot at the Provincials", concludes Kelly

[DANSYOURMAN]

Sean kelly is a smart man !!